Now we finally have a better field for "country" (in Discogs) and still some people make a mess of the field.

Territories is the place where the release is marketed or distributed. We can add more countries to the field, so we don't have to discuss where it was distributed. I almost buy all my releases in the Netherlands, so territory is Netherlands. When someone buys the same release in (example) Belgium, he/she adds Belgium to the Territories. So we have 2 countries in that field.

So it is possible to have 10 or more countries in the territories field, which is a lot more easier than Discogs.

But don't remove countries because you think it was not distributed there!

This raises an interesting distinction.

The distribution "footprint" (territories or part territories) of a release is sometimes muddied by companies making deals with other distribution companies/subsidaries. I have noticed plenty of BBFC classified discs (i.e. intended for UK release) end up in Scandinavia, Netherlands etc.

However, just because you bought a release in one country does not automatically mean it was meant intended to be distributed there. I can buy American, German, Hong Kong, etc releases in the UK. They remain American, German, Hong Kong releases on account of the companies doing the distribution and their primary footprints. I'm just happy for these resourceful outlets seeking materials otherwise unavailable here.

Please check the company doing the distribution. Not the nationality of the shop selling it. The release in question
has no Dutch/Benelux companies/local offices cited, nor does it have NICAM classification - though I can't be sure this is a legal requirement in the Netherlands as it is in the UK.

What it does have is BBFC and IFCO classification, plus a huge 'U.K.' underneath the Sony Pictures Home Entertainment logo on the rear. It also has (though this isn't always a useful indication) a UK prefix in its barcode and another in its part number. Since UK and Ireland are generally considered a single footprint by the Hollywood major studios I think it is safe to call this a UK / Ireland release.

Netherlands is questionable, at the very least. Especially since I have seen NICAM classified (12) discs in second hand shops in London with a 87 UPC (Dutch) prefix, which might indicate a specifically Dutch/Benelux release.

You used get BBC TV in parts of the Netherlands too, was that intended or just footprint overspill?

If you can provide evidence that it is Sony policy to conflate Netherlands and UK into a single footprint for this or similar releases then it would be permisable to add Netherlands as an intended territory.

I could be wrong, but I am not sure that you bought it in the Netherlands is enough evidence.

At the time of release I worked at a wholesale company for the smaller record stores in the Netherlands. This copy was delivered by Sony Pictures Netherlands. So I can assure you that this release was distributed in the Netherlands.

You also added "European Union" as territory. The European Union is an organisation, not a country. You probably ment Europe, but UK is also Europe.

We finally have a better solution for country (adding more countries to a release). So if a release is distributed in other countries (except for import), you can easily add that country.

For now The Social Network was/is distributed in the Netherlands & UK. Maybe other countries will follow.

Same story: Distributed by Warner Home Videos the Netherlands.

Thanks for the clarification.

Since we aim to be true to the details on the release, there will be confusion. The only way of dealing with this is by setting case by case precedents here in the forum, since this will take argument from the away from edit logs.

Also, we do not want users adding territories simply based on where they bought an item. Imports exist, legal or otherwise, and in some countries this is very common, therefore attribtion of territory based on where it is bought has the potential to be highly misleading. I suggest that undocumented territories should be raised in the forum first, before being added to releases.

As a general practice, remaining true to the details on the release is certainly best practice. If you place Netherlands on releases that have no mention anywhere of Dutch companies/classification etc, users will be be wasting their time scouring their copies looking for evidence that isn't there and possible waste more time adding duplicates because they don't the evidence that isn't there.

So, if this is an established precedent - the notes on any such release should emphasise that no Dutch companies are documented on the packaging.

I used to own a record shop. I used to buy most of my stock from grey area distributors who sourced stock in the EU taking advantage of free trade capabilities between member states to sell them on. I did this because it was often cheaper than buying from UK distributors, so I could squeeze a few pennies more margin. What I couldn't do was buy direct from foreign distributors - especially those with offices in the UK.

This was straightforward for music - where the stock and its rights were mostly compatible across countries. It was less easy for non music vhs/dvd. Since most titles wouldn't so readily share distribution rights between territories, nor language/subtitling, nor classification; but a few titles were available to my business and I stocked and sold them.

The reason I share this anecdote is to again stress that just because something is bought in one country does not mean it was originally distributed there.

I would guess distribution of foreign stock is easier if you are Sony Pictures Netherlands and all is required is that NICAM will give an identical classification.

But I still think the default is go by release documentation - until clarity and consensus is reached here in the forum.

If Sony Netherlands distribute a foreign version (for whatever reason), it is distributed in Netherlands.

Same with Also ordered at Universal Netherlands and recieved this version. It helps that NICAM is on the disc.

The issue here is that you still maintain that buying in a country means that it was distributed there, end of story. This is the argument you make, repeatedly, in your edit logs, and it is the advice you are giving to future users who may read those logs.

It is not the end of the story. Imports happen, sometimes legally, sometimes illegally and often inbetween.

So this is potentially misleading advice.

Please exercise some caution in giving it.

Also you don't appear to understand that a territory isn't always a country. You seem to think that it always has to be. This isn't supported by how the industry operates. USA and Canada - 1 territory NOT 2 (they call it North America). Frequently the UK and Ireland - 1 territory NOT 2 (though how that will work after 2020?). For theatrical India has 7, count them: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 territories, covering the 36* separate states that we know as one country: India.

Now, this is aggrevated by Filmogs' decision to make territory align to specific countries, a decision argued against by myself, back when it was introduced, but they did it anyway so we must live with a less than ideal situation.

To clarify my position on your bugbear that the EU isn't a country. I get that. But neither are territories. What the EU is, is a free trade zone, that has some exemptions and conditions for cultural products but these get overidden in many cases in the sellthru video market. A territory is fundamentally also a trading zone. Thus my reasoning that goods freely available across the EU, such as non classified material like music, can be judged EU. Though perhaps Europe is the better term, but that does not acknowledge the specific free trade agreement that allows the ease to widen distribution footprints in the EU specifically; European countries outside the EU inevitably have to strike separate deals.

The professional anecdote I offered several posts above is proof that goods could be freely exchanged in the EU, even if I, as a business, could not approach Sony Netherlands for goods, I may have received some Sony Netherlands discs to sell in the UK from wholesalers operating out of stock sourced in the EU. My customers (and I for that matter) were none the wiser. When they bought Blade Runner from me in London they might have assumed the disc they held in their hand was distributed in the UK - when in fact it was sourced from the outside the specific UK/Ireland territory.

However, the anecdote was shared because it proves us both right. You are right that sometimes identical releases are legally sold in foreign markets, by uncredited companies/subdivisions of companies. I am right to urge caution in attribution of territory based on where it was purchased. Goods can be legally traded outside the intended territory. Plus sometimes the intended territory is wider than indicated on the packaging. Therefore in some instances the credits on packaging is misleading; i.e. requiring some clarification in the notes section of a release (though I haven't seen any such clarifiation in your notes to date ... all I see is edit logs claiming country of purchase is territory - which it isn't - and the notes section left empty).

My principle point is that these issues and individual company practice for individual releases needs to be argued here in the forum. Ideally informed by those with industry experience.

I have worked with UK distributors in several contexts. I was film programmer for a small cinema, dealing with distributors on a daily basis. I have programmed festivals and touring programmes within the UK and Europe, sometimes having to source films from non-domestic distributors. Plus I owned a retail business that sold vhs and dvd. I know a little about distribution. But there is much I confess to be ignorant about, especially how majors operate with regard to international distribution of sellthru home video. Note: We can't say 'sales' here because in film 'international sales' mostly means business to business, not business to consumer - i.e. how the exploitation rights to films are sold to distributors around the world, and thus not how an indivdual title on disc is subsequently retailed by those distributors. The majors in the main don't do international sales as such since they are international companies operating with offices globally. That's how they are majors.

What I want clarification on is how those international sub-divisions self-identify or not? How they mark their territory, as it were? I see this as useful to a consumer because if I were Dutch or simply a fan of the Dutch censorship regulation, I'd want to know why Sony Netherlands allows a Sony UK cut of film to be distributed in my country when my own classification body might not be as heavy or have different priorities with the edit knife. Perhaps this is because those particular films were not cut? Perhaps there were cuts but they assume a majority of their specific consumers won't mind or notice?

I welcome others into the debate.

  • 28 states and 8 'union territories'.

remco2502 wrote:

If Sony Netherlands distribute a foreign version (for whatever reason), it is distributed in Netherlands.

Same with Also ordered at Universal Netherlands and recieved this version. It helps that NICAM is on the disc.

I see so you are going by ratings and not distributed in / copyright, i see nowhere on battleship say Netherlands, only language Dutch.

i would say battleship is UK, many European releases have various ratings like UK / Ireland, France, Netherlands, australia and Germany but its the front packaging and copyright / distribution that makes regions.

for example this release is from Scandinavia but also has german, australian, french, uk and dutch ratings on disc, it does not mean it makes that scandinavia release French because you buy it in a France store.
it makes it france copy if the covrr ratings differ from the scandinavia copy.

another example this is a dutch release
because it has dutch ratings on artwork of battleship and it still has UK, French, german, australia etc ratings on the disc.

i hope clears up.

oh by regions i mean territories.

First of all, you are comparing different editions: (Steelbbok Blu-ray + DVD) (Keepcase Blu-ray)

Like I said, we ordered (wholesale) all the editions through Universal Pictures (the Netherlands). And the release states: Sold and distributed in the E.U. by Universal Pictures (UK) Ltd. So I guess when the users grow, there will be more different countries to this release (like Belgium and Luxembourg)

I didn't buy steelcases, but it is possible that the steelcases had a special Dutch version. At the release date there were several versions available (DVD - DVD & Blu-ray - DVD, Blu-ray & Ultraviolet - DVD & Blu-ray in steelcase - Blu-ray 4K...)

remco2502 wrote:

Sold and distributed in the E.U. by Universal Pictures (UK) Ltd.

You see: E.U. as a territory.

Yes, and EU is not available in the dropdown, so the best way is to enter each country where it has been sold. Like I said, when someone buys this release in Belgium he/she adds Belgium to the territory

And yet I have entered 'European Union' on appropriate releases. You should know this since you recently removed it, replacing it with 'Netherlands' - radically reducing the release's territorial footprint. Your excuse: 'not a country'. Well, neither are territories. As 'sold and distributed in the E.U.' demonstrates.

Filmogs enabled the territory field as freetext for a reason. And substantially, it is: territory, not: country I bought something in.

Your deletion might just appear like destruction of perfectly useful, factually correct data.

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