Since we got the events issue sorted now, let's sort out another issue that seems to be splitting the site, credits in non-English formats.

Under the guidelines regarding Latin Transliteration,
it is acceptable for credits to be listed in their native language, it also states the change of language should be discussed in the forum, hence this thread. I'd also argue any change of name should have the original name listed in the notes, not just deleted.

While cleaning up pages I have come across duplicate pages being in both the native language and in English, in these incidents I have put the main credit under the native language while having the English names as ANV redirects, for example.

This allows searches for the native name and the English name and if the English name is used it can be used to find the original. Also under this the original should be the used credit and adding an ANV on the film for the viable name.

I will admit that few Korean and Japanese names have their native names listed as ANV, this is because there was so few of them it made more sense compared with other languages on the site, but because they exist then it's just a case of swapping names over if necessary.

Once we have really ANV variables built in to the system with searching matching on those names, then I see having the name of the credit in that person's native language. I think until we have that though, in order to prevent duplicate credits being created when people are going through IMDB to put in a lot of credit names for a film work or some other database that isn't the same language as the language of the credit, perhaps it would be good to have it be in anglified text for now, and definitely put the native text name in the profile so that people can see what their native name should be. And for films, perhaps use name variants to have the native names show up in the credit list for the film, so that people looking at a film can see the native language of that film. That would also take care of situations where some of these actors/actresses may have roles in American films or other country's films that don't have their native language. For English language films, no name variants would be needed in these instances.j

Also, try and make an effort to go to a native language film database site to find that credit's entry there and add that for the credit so that one can look up the credit in their native language.

I agree with using English language names till we get a proper ANV system, but I was refering to those that currently exist, it seems counterproductive to change them into English, but if an English page exists use that to point to the native one.

Until we have a proper ANV system that properly searches for and finds titles and names this is going to be awkward.

My issue with names (and titles of films for that matter, c.f international co-productions) in native writing systems is that film is and always has been an international medium. As such "native" is frequently far from clear, some actors may comfortably use several names/languages/writing systems to self identify. Korean actors working out of China for example. Or even Hong Kong actors in China (simplified vs traditional Chinese + Cantonese vs. Mandarin).

It is also the case that many countries have more than one language/writing system. Which is the base language/script that we should employ? E.g. In Nigeria English might make more sense than any native languages, for political reasons, since it is the 'business language'. Plus, just how many international users genuinely know all 200+ languages in India? I'm educated enough to know they make films in at least 30 languages, but I couldn't name them all, nor would I know how to easily search for them or what individual actors might prefer for self-identification.

Also, there is a limit to how many international keyboards anyone can have on their computers for data entry. IMDb's system of latinisation makes a certain amount of sense given the international scope of the database there. But even that causes problems with different transliterations.

I salute your effort to make some sense of existing credits, THeWho87, but it creates more work down the line and makes for clunky (several click) searches. Data entry is sloppy enough, without further hoops for users to jump through. I wonder if conflating writing systems like this: 'मल्लिका शेरावत / Mallika Sherawat' might be easier? (Similar to how Hong Kong actors seem to latinised by some at the moment, with both Western and birth given names).

A workable ANV system is imperative. But even then, selecting the core/original/native title/name/credit will not always be straighforward, nor should we have any expectation that it should be. Language, culture and political sensitivities just ain't logical.

Ideally I'd argue for an ANV system similar to how you can add other language titles to films, but have it searchable in the add credit field and in general searches, it could be easier to transfer over similar to how events from films were added to credits before, and a simple fix for this issue, however till then I'd argue it makes sense to have at least some way to find them while not removing the current non-English name either by adding it to the profile or using an ANV credit.

The English names I also agree with, because not being able to find a film when you're making a release page is agitating. Especially if the original language of the film is not your native language. Sometimes you don't even have any idea it was released like that, you'll be confused, and accidently add a duplicate credit. So until we get the ANV system like we have on Discogs, I support using this.

On Discogs we have agreed to enter the Hindu artists with Latin script and to store the Hindu name as an alias.

Some examples

https://www.discogs.com/de/artist/56675-Asha-Bhosle
https://www.discogs.com/de/artist/356612-Udit-Narayan
https://www.discogs.com/de/artist/342906-Lata-Mangeshkar

marco.leistner1 wrote:

On Discogs we have agreed to enter the Hindu artists with Latin script and to store the Hindu name as an alias.

Is there a discussion thread on that with staff confirmation?

My main issue was based on a user removing the Hindi name and putting the English name, totally removing the Hindi name, to me information should not be removed, if anything added to the profile.

Also just for clarification, the ANV names are duplicate pages, I turn the first created page of a person into the original even if that means swapping names. If the decision is to turn them into English, ONLY change the original page and not any ANV.

And there are also problems that many languages have, when due to at times IMDB's inadequate and MISPELLING of names when their names don't have certain characters in them like Turkish language entities where the turkish language has both"s" and "ş" characters which are pronounced and used very differently, but IMDB equivalences them and therefore makes it impossible at times to match properly, when entering in Turkish credits. "I" and "İ" characters also mishandled by IMDB amongst others. I imagine other languages with anglicized alphabets that I'm not as familiar with as I am the Turkish language probably have similar problems. We definitely need name variants to handle sites like IMDB that are used as source sites to input data to identify ANV of mispelled names on other largely used database sites too.

Here's an example of a Turkish credit which IMDB mispells two of the credit name's letters.

https://films.discogs.com/credit/328503-nejat-isler

Note that the Turkish web site here has the proper name spelling in parenthesis. It looks like they have the outer name to help people pronounce it properly substituting a "j" for a "c". A "c" without the cedille is pronounced "j", and c with a cedille is pronounced "ch".

So as we get name variants, if there's a additional field to identify the language, perhaps another one to identify what name is the proper native spelling, and what name has been mispelled by another site too (like IMDB has freuenlty done in the case of Turkish and perhaps other nationale's credits). That could handle what is the proper order of first and last name, which in many cases might be last name, first order for Asian credits too.

By having that feature, it will help make sure that we have the properly spelled name as the main name for native language speakers when ANV fields are present, and also allow errant names as an ANV to help identify them when someone tries to enter one of these mispelled names from another site like IMDB too. If filmogs can put in a good system to handle these different kind of variants, it might be a site people increasingly go to as a reference site the more complete it's database becomes.

Hoping when filmogs gets a good ANV system, all of the ANV values are equivalent, and one is just "selected" as the main name the credit should be known by. That would make it easier without needing to cut and paste values later if one decides a differnet ANV value should be the primary displayed credit name.

Totally agree, that's why I don't side with IMDb on accuracy, more on convenience, hence why I try and get Wikipedia pages as well cause you can get different countries versions. I've seen some users blindly change to the IMDb name removing charachters IMDb don't use, I see that as wrong unless you at least preserve it in the profile.

And 100% agree a proper ANV system is needed ASAP, but since I messaged pointing out a serious flaw in their system, the response I got back was essentially "thanks for telling us, the spin off discogs sites are low priority right now so cannot say when it will be fixed", I don't think we should hold our breath for it anytime soon and work with what we have.

This are the Discogs Guidelines for Artists.

https://support.discogs.com/hc/en-us/articles/360005054753-Database-Guidelines-2-Artist

And this for Transliteration And Different Languages:

2.12.1. Swapping about primary artist names should only be done as a last resort, after discussion and a clear need to do it.

2.12.2. If the artist uses a Latin transliteration of their name on most releases, that should be the Primary Artist Name (PAN).

2.12.3. If the native spelling of an artist's name uses non-Latin characters, but the artist is well known in countries which use Latin characters, and has a Latin transliteration of their name, there should be a preference for having that Latin transliteration as the Primary Artist Name (PAN).

2.12.4. Borderline cases must be discussed and reasonably resolved (in the help forums) before any changes are made. Try to take into account the artists popularity in different countries, how the majority of releases indicate their name, and what will be easiest for all users of Discogs.

TheWho87 wrote:

Is there a discussion thread on that with staff confirmation?

That makes sence, however since most of these hindi credits mostly have films in hindi would that not in turn justify keeping their names in hindi under this rule?

If you only play in Hindi films, the spelling is probably justified. It only becomes difficult as soon as one or more international films are added.

Exactly, I agree and support using English names for ease and convenience till an ANV system is in place, however I'm against changing them into English "just because" it's easier.

I don't think this is a issue with non-English language films due to the alternative titles system that shows up in searches.

If we have foreign named credits with non-Latin characters, minimally, someone should put that anglified version of the name in the Info section, so that everytime a potential duplicate happens, it minimizes the time to properly adding credits for foreign named credits to avoid duplicates. What will happen in effect until ANV system is put in place, without that additional information at least in the information section of credits, many will avoid entering foreign films or films with many foreign credits to avoid that extra needed effort to add films. When entering Turkish films, I try to consistently put in both Turkish site links and IMDB or other links to provide that information for those credits, which hopefully makes it useful for others later to add Turkish or other films that uses them as credits, when even if they have an anglified alphabet, the variants aren't put in properly on sites like IMDB. And many cases like India and Israel, there are many native residents that also speak English too that would appreciate having it both in Hindi (for Indian), or Hebrew (for Israeli films) as well as their anglified equivalents.

That's why I always try to source WIkipedia, cause due to the multiple languages it's easy to switch to the language to get more info, was very helpful when I was sourcing links for Greek credits.

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