Not sure if this is a good idea, but going through companies I came across these three, all linked to a Russian (I'm assuming) language page, and thought rather than tagging these as duplicates, if their tagged as ANV if someone goes to use them or finds them, they would know their an alternate English name for a non-English page.

Plus not being tagged as a duplicate means they won't get reused.

I've only done the three I found so far
- Mosfilm [ANV]
- Mosfilm Studios [ANV]
- Mosfilm, Moscow [ANV]

It's one of these things I'm wondering if it's a good idea since their technically duplicates, but their duplicates in another language to the original?

This might be something for credits as well, maybe tagging alternate languages or alternate variants of spelling names, I'm thinking those alternately translated/reversed Asian credits from IMDb.

seems like a good idea until filmogs have a ANV-system in place.

I would suggest mostly using it for English variants of non-English names, along with names that differ on various source sites, this wouldn't mean creating them, but if an alternate name is created/found, that would become an ANV name.

This would help with Russian companies and actors who manly act in Russia.

and even help with spelling differences for other actors.

I did a few more Russian companies as I found them but so far all companies.

Might be logical to continue for the Russian stuff, hopefully the others can weigh in and possibly agree to this.

im doing the anv system for Kod Apokalipsisa which the title should be in russian as its a russian film.

I think there is an added concern about situations where the "country" of the film isn't clear. The film maybe having a lot or even most of the film footage shot in a country or more than one country, but the people involved in creating the film (director, narrator, etc.) are in a different country like the U.S., which might be the case for some films that might be totally located in Russia but edited in the U.S., with U.S. crew.

A film I just created has these issues:
https://films.discogs.com/film/440672-prayer-of-peace-reief-resistance-in-burmas-war-zones

It was about Burmese refugees, but was largely shot in Thailand, but edited and produced on U.S. soil, with an American director in charge:

https://films.discogs.com/film/440672-prayer-of-peace-reief-resistance-in-burmas-war-zones

I kept it in English since Matt Blauer, largely did postproduction on it and released it with U.S. production facilities. The refugees arguably speak in Karen (a Burmese language not included), and not Thai, where most of them live now too.

An additional issue is the notion of what countries should be included for the film. Had to add Myanmar as the country here, because the country it used be known by at the time of the film being shot "Burma" is now known as "Myanmar" in this country list.

We probably need some aliases or some means of identifying countries that no longer exist but existed at the time of the film (West Germany, East Germany, Yugoslavia, etc.) and Soviet Union vs. current states such as Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Georgia, etc. Sometimes it might not be clear which of these newer countries to "map" what was in the credits for earlier films should be.

For companies, in some cases it isn't very clear which country they are in in some cases and what the native langauge therefore should company credits should be in. I would argue that many entering films in don't really know if a company credited has a foreign name, as the film might be created in a different country from that company, and therefore showing credits in the language of that country or releasing country targeted for a film release.

Hopefully a new ANV system will be able to handle putting in overlapping languages, countries (and the different countries that might have existed at an earlier time).

Companies go through a history of buyouts, mergers, renaming, etc. too which have similar issues in terms of what is listed on an earlier release says and what exists today.

Speaking of country credits. It looks like all of our films were updated a short time ago here to have only references to Czechia (that is in the country dropdown), and not "Czech Republic". It is interesting to note that in IMDB, there are NO films from "Czechia" and almost 7,000 films that are from "Czech Republic". And Wikipedia still also has "Czech Republic" for most of these films too. Even this film here which has "Czechia" in the title is listed as from "Czech Republic" in imdb. Aliasing for the constantly changing geographic borders of countries is that much more challenging than actors and companies too.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3618318/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

This article talks about both of these names remaining "official" names though Czechia is probably now the name of choice for the country. But it would seem that films made before the split of Czechoslovakia in to "Czech Republic" (then!) and "Slovakia" should also be able to have "Czechoslovakia" as a country for that name, as it would be hard to know which part of the larger part of the country it was filmed in. Might have been what is now Slovakia, but got renamed to "Czechia". Same things for films of the Soviet Union before it was split in to pieces as well. A lot of the films here are a historical record of the geography of earlier times. Seems like something we should find a way to preserve, though perhaps one wanders if even IMDB has it always correct as ell.

Here's the link to the article on Czech country names...
https://www.businessinsider.com/czech-republic-changes-name-to-czechia-2016-4

mikewn wrote:

Speaking of country credits. It looks like all of our films were updated a short time ago here to have only references to Czechia (that is in the country dropdown), and not "Czech Republic". It is interesting to note that in IMDB, there are NO films from "Czechia" and almost 7,000 films that are from "Czech Republic". And Wikipedia still also has "Czech Republic" for most of these films too. Even this film here which has "Czechia" in the title is listed as from "Czech Republic" in imdb. Aliasing for the constantly changing geographic borders of countries is that much more challenging than actors and companies too.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3618318/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

This article talks about both of these names remaining "official" names though Czechia is probably now the name of choice for the country. But it would seem that films made before the split of Czechoslovakia in to "Czech Republic" (then!) and "Slovakia" should also be able to have "Czechoslovakia" as a country for that name, as it would be hard to know which part of the larger part of the country it was filmed in. Might have been what is now Slovakia, but got renamed to "Czechia". Same things for films of the Soviet Union before it was split in to pieces as well. A lot of the films here are a historical record of the geography of earlier times. Seems like something we should find a way to preserve, though perhaps one wanders if even IMDB has it always correct as ell.

That would have been me, from my understanding they are both the same thing, their both names for the same country and there were films listed under both names, so iI thought it would make sense to put them under one country, personnly I don't see why Czechia is the default option over Czech Republic since its more an alternate name, like listing America over United States, plus more people would know them as the Czech Republic.

Also I would not have put Czechoslovakia under Czechia as that was the name of the country at that time, the same with Soviet Union with Russia and Germany and West Germany.

TheWho87 wrote:

Also I would not have put Czechoslovakia under Czechia as that was the name of the country at that time, the same with Soviet Union with Russia and Germany and West Germany.

But arguably Czechoslovakia could also be under Slovakia in the same fashion too. Would one put two variant names going to each country? And for a film made in the "Soviet Union", would one make a name variant for each of the former states of the Soviet Union with a Soviet Union name variatn for it? Either that or perhaps one has to do a lot of research (that might not turn up anything) on which current countries formerly of the Soviet Union the film was made in. Something that I don't think most of us have the time to do.

It's easier if multiple older countries have merged in to one state from earlier times rather than have been split apart. I could arguably change and perhaps should change the country credits on these two films I created earlier to have "West Germany" and "East Germany" name variants to Germany as the country they have now to match what is in imdb, and where they were made, The second one had a different German title in West Germany too.

West Germany - https://films.discogs.com/film/343978-der-junge-torless
East Germany - https://films.discogs.com/film/353614-rotation

No, Czechoslovakia and Slovakia would not be considered the same, the point that Czech Republic and Slovakia split ended Czechoslovakia.

You're just being pedantic, the reason Czech Republic was changed into Czechia was because their both official names for the same country at the same point of time and I felt it was logical to have all films that were linked to that country but using different variations of name to be listed under one, it's what I've been doing with sub genres, trying to put all of the same thing under one umbrella.

Would you be complaining if instead of Czechia I put them under Czech Republic, cause I'll change them, only sided with Czechia as it's considered the default, I think the default should be Czech Republic anyway.

No definitely Czech Republic and Czechia could be viewed as equivalent and aliases for each other. I'm just saying if I have a film that was listed as being made in Czechoslovakia before the split (and therefore not Id'd as Czechia or Czech Republic), then I probably would need to then put both Czechia and Slovakia as country credits in that instance, as it wouldn't be clear from the film data in many instances, whether the film was made in either the Czechia portion of the former Czechoslovakia or the Slovakia portion of the former Czechoslovakia.

I'm not speaking of the Czechia/Czech Republic in that last comment, just the problems of trying to select the newer countries to map to what they used to be in the cases of countries that have split in to multiple countries today like the older Czechoslovakia and Soviet Union. Many of these countries split way before film technology existed and therefore aren't worth worrying about. These would be the ones that perhaps should be considered in having the older countries also in the list:

1) Czechoslovakia:
- split in to Czechia and Slovakia
2) Pakistan:
- Pakistan and Bangladesh
3) Soviet Union:
- split in to Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldovia, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, and Uzbekistan.
4) Prussia:
- part of modern Germany and western Poland.
5) Yugoslavia (as a kid I traveled through here when it was one country then):
- split into Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Slovenia.
6) Korea:
- split in to North Korea and South Korea.
7) Rhodesia:
- Zambia and Zimbabwe
8) Vietnam:
- South Vietnam and North Vietnam.

In that last post, I'm not complaining about the proper id of Czechia vs. Czech Republic, which since they are equivalent, can arguably be more easily resolved by name variants, etc. too that allows one to id the former country and map it to where it sits today geographically. I'm just speaking of the larger problem of when nations have split in to smaller states in the latter half of the last century or later, how it is difficult in many cases to map what film works may have been done in those older larger countries to today's country list. Many of these states probably don't have many films associated with being made in them, so they are probably not issues. But for the Soviet Union, and other formerly large countries like Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, these are where a good policy should be thought of how to put in place older films properly to map to today's environment.

I think for most cases both IMDb and Wikipedia would list the country it was made in under the name it would have been at the time, and since the country field is a free input field if it was made under the then Czechoslovakia or Soviet Union just put that, that's what people have been doing.

My logic is the same I have with sub genres, if there are two that mean the same but spelt differently, for example one using "And" and another "&", I'll rename one to put them all under the same tag, makes more sense to tag stuff under one

I'm not sure I see a problem here.

Films made in the Soviet Era are Soviet films. There can be no argument about that. They were made under the auspices of that nation as defined back then.

If for whatever reasons, some state from within what was the Soviet Union wants to claim a film made from that region in that period as their own, they can do so - but alongside the Soviet identity. (CF Ashik Kerib - USSR / Georgia).

This actually makes sense, since some regions in Soviet Union, Russian Federation, China, Germany, etc (ahem, even the United Kingdom) have (semi) autonomous status with specific bodies funding, producing and distributing films. But there are all answerable to the state at large.

What cannot be done is calling a Soviet Union film: Russian Federation. This is factually incorrect because that state didn't exist in the Soviet period. Similarly, pre 1917 Russian films are Russian (or Russian Empire).

This isn't messy - this is historical fact.

sixandnine wrote:

I'm not sure I see a problem here.

Films made in the Soviet Era are Soviet films. There can be no argument about that. They were made under the auspices of that nation as defined back then.

If for whatever reasons, some state from within what was the Soviet Union wants to claim a film made from that region in that period as their own, they can do so - but alongside the Soviet identity. (CF Ashik Kerib - USSR / Georgia).

This actually makes sense, since some regions in Soviet Union, Russian Federation, China, Germany, etc (ahem, even the United Kingdom) have (semi) autonomous status with specific bodies funding, producing and distributing films. But there are all answerable to the state at large.

What cannot be done is calling a Soviet Union film: Russian Federation. This is factually incorrect because that state didn't exist in the Soviet period. Similarly, pre 1917 Russian films are Russian (or Russian Empire).

This isn't messy - this is historical fact.

The problem is that there is no "Soviet Union" country entity in the country dropdown list the site now has, so either one needs to "create" a "Soviet Union" entry to have it listed, or try to track down which of the current remnant countries of that country then it was filmed in and perhaps attach a name variant of "Soviet Union" to point to them. I guess the larger question this prompts is should older, non-existent countries such as "The Soviet Union", "Czechoslovakia", "Yugoslavia", etc. also be entries in this dropdown, or what should be the recommended way of storing where this film came from in terms of working with the current country list. For countries like "West Germany" and "East Germany", that is more easy as I just add "Germany" as a country that has merged and encompasses those two countries, and just use a name variant within the film page itself to record whether it was filmed in "West Germany" or "East Germany" at the time. Countries changing makeup before the 1880's is not an issue for this, as film technology didn't really exist before that time, and probably for most of us, we're not dealing with too many releases prior to the 1940's either.

At least there perhaps is a more concrete history of the evolution of these countries to help us put the right thing in place and have some general rules for doing such moving foward, as opposed to the many variety of names and structures that companies have that makes trying to support what the "base companies" are that need name variants in some cases should be in that arena. That's where aliases for companies are far more important to get added soon than in the country area.

No because it's a free text field you can input the name into.

Is THAT what your issue is? Old countries are not in the default drop list? It doesn't matter, just type the name in and "create" it, like the 800+ currently listed from the Soviet Union.

TheWho87 wrote:

No because it's a free text field you can input the name into.

Is THAT what your issue is? Old countries are not in the default drop list? It doesn't matter, just type the name in and "create" it, like the 800+ currently listed from the Soviet Union.

I guess mainly if we could put it in the wiki or other guide pages, that for these countries, add them, so that people do things consistently on the web site. If Soviet Union were on the drop down list, it probably would be a no-brainer for those adding films then in using that entry, instead of having to learn from unstated processes how to do it consistently with the way others are doing it. Many like me, in other instances, added "Czech Republic" the way IMDB has all of thoes entries instead of using Czechia too, which is a different thing since they are just different names for the same country, but having a place where we define the process for older countries vs. newer ones and using of name variants, etc. would be good to have us all put things up properly when we first enter the films.

Yeah that's something to add to the wiki.

mikewn wrote:

... should older, non-existent countries such as "The Soviet Union", "Czechoslovakia", "Yugoslavia", etc. also be entries in this dropdown,

Back when countries were first introduced as a field, we (at least I) asked that historical countries be included... I guess staff think that a free text ability can handle this. This is true, but a drop down would be tidier and ensure consistency.

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