Put simply which do you think is the better resource for Asian credits?

Personally I think HKMDB seems better since they list aliases along with the name in its original language. Add to that IMDb seems to put Asian names in their natural order, last name first name, while HKMDB would list then in their Western language and format.

And it makes sense to pick one and stick to that to avoid and issues long-term.

This does not mean I'm against sourcing to IMDb, just not using their naming formatting due to inaccuracies.

This is a prime example
https://films.discogs.com/credit/37344-biao-yuen

IMDb lists him as Biao Yuen, yet its correctly ordered a Yuen Biao, and he is commonly known in the west a Yuen Biao.

What's the best option?

It is certainly not the best thing to change all entries from the IMDB to the HKMDB as you did and then not to include the stored images and dates such as birthdays.

This is called massedit and is prohibited. Please stop editing in data records without first asking the forum or the creator.

In my opinion, the names of IMDB should be taken over, since most of us work with them and therefore the least duplicates arise.

The name variants of HKMDB should be stored in the link, e.g. here https://films.discogs.com/credit/201377-meng-hua-ho

many people will use imdb before hkmd, i never heard of hkmd until i joined here.

marco.leistner1 wrote:

It is certainly not the best thing to change all entries from the IMDB to the HKMDB as you did and then not to include the stored images and dates such as birthdays.

This is called massedit and is prohibited. Please stop editing in data records without first asking the forum or the creator.

In my opinion, the names of IMDB should be taken over, since most of us work with them and therefore the least duplicates arise.

The name variants of HKMDB should be stored in the link, e.g. here https://films.discogs.com/credit/201377-meng-hua-ho

Yes all name variations should follow that.

marco.leistner1 wrote:

It is certainly not the best thing to change all entries from the IMDB to the HKMDB as you did and then not to include the stored images and dates such as birthdays.

This is called massedit and is prohibited. Please stop editing in data records without first asking the forum or the creator.

In my opinion, the names of IMDB should be taken over, since most of us work with them and therefore the least duplicates arise.

The name variants of HKMDB should be stored in the link, e.g. here https://films.discogs.com/credit/201377-meng-hua-ho

I included events, I only removed them from the duplicate pages to avoid confusion.

You seem to think I just did this maliciously changing names for the sake of changing them, what I did was cross reference credits between IMDb, Wikipedia and HKMDB checking for duplicate credits, I then named the credits in the most correct translation/formatting of their names which tended to be Wikipedia or HKMDB's way of spelling since they seem to be a more accurate translation than IMDb which as I mentioned tend to translate things literally and into the native format for Asian names which is last name first name.

HKMDB is still new to me, but from what I've seen it's far improved over IMDb, they list multiple aliases for credits along with their name in their native language.

I get that IMDb is a more common source, but I could also argue so is Wikipedia and they name their pages different to IMDb, does that make one "better" than the other, of course not, I'm just saying to name credits in the best translation of their name which tends to not be IMDb.

You changed 80 credits of a film I entered, that was the entire crew and my entries marked as duplicates and a new entry with HKMDB spelling.

I'm not angry, their approach is very frustrating only for all users whose entries are so alienated.

Maybe you should concentrate more on your own entries than constantly editing other entries in a police database.

And just accept that IMDB is the most sensible source at the moment.

A week ago they wanted to sell me Wikipedia as the best source after editing some entries again.

As I said, I cross referenced the credits over THREE sites, including all the crew as they were also listed, and for better accurate I made sure the attributed films on the sources matched. In most cases I was correcting translations or correctly ordering the names, things your seem to want to ignore because "it's not IMDb".

I focus on cleaning this place up and reducing duplicates, something you don't care about since for example there was a duplicate page of Biao Yuen that was tagged as a duplicate and linked to the main yet you created a duplicate of it anyway.

Why can't you accept that IMDb is not always correct, and yes I'd argue Wikipedia a better source, they can cover different languages something IMDb doesn't do, especially when it comes to specific letter characters that IMDb doesn't use.

I can accept that IMDB is not always correct, but I reiterate that it is the most sensible source to avoid duplicates. Which is so important for them.

There is no point in messing up spellings of three or more pages, since the next entry is a duplicate if another page is used as the source.

They did not add to my entries, they simply showed my spelling as a duplicate and used their spelling on a new entry. In doing so, they left out the art pictures and sometimes also the birthdays. I really don't understand what that has to do with an improvement of the site.

I also do not edit the wrestler films you have entered, although there are also some duplicate entries.

Nobody minds if individual artists who are actually identical in spelling are edited and put together, but to rewrite a whole film with 80 artists (which are all correct), I think to be brazen to say the least.

So for me the discussion ends here. If this happens again, I will contact the administrators.

And if you plan to change something fundamental in the database in the future, then ask in the forum beforehand whether this is also desired by the other users.

I would personally ask to edit a users created page before editing and use IMDB as the main reference.

anything else link in where links go.

keep up good work marco i added mostly just sub genres too all Zombie films you add sorry about that.

The subgenre is perfectly fine, add something I forgot.

Don't mind if a link to HKMDB is added to the artists I created. But I don't accept it if a complete film set is rewritten. Although I also think that my entries are not so bad that this would be justified.

marco.leistner1 wrote:

But I don't accept it if a complete film set is rewritten. Although I also think that my entries are not so bad that this would be justified.

As previously stated this was not done, I cross referenced the credits of the films over three sources, the only changes to the film page were to put original credits over the duplicates.

I used the HKMDB names as they were a more accurate translation of their names and in a correct naming format (first name last name), this seems to be the key thing you ignore, most changes were correcting name order while others were correcting translations.

marco.leistner1 wrote:

I also do not edit the wrestler films you have entered, although there are also some duplicate entries.

Would you mind pointing out examples of this that are not already tagged as duplicates as I would like to correct them.

marco.leistner1 wrote:

So for me the discussion ends here. If this happens again, I will contact the administrators.

I wouldn't mind the admins view on this as I don't see that I have done anything wrong, this is a difference of opinion, my opinion of wanting to accurately catalog names under their best translation and most known name and your opinon of IMDb must be followed to the letter and cannot be questioned.

I will always use HKMDB when adding Chinese credits and movies.
I will always use KMDB when adding Korean credits and movies.
I will start using JFDB when adding Japanese credits and movies. (just found it)

IMDb is good for basic stuff but to think they know how to spell a chinese persons name better than a chinese person is ridiculous!

For the record, all of these sites are user generated content. They all have mistakes.

Furthermore all this is completely moot till the devs fix/impliment the alias/anv/alternates system. Untill then this site will continually gather dupes and generate pointless arguments in the forums.

Nivekian wrote:

I will always use HKMDB when adding Chinese credits and movies.
I will always use KMDB when adding Korean credits and movies.
I will start using JFDB when adding Japanese credits and movies. (just found it)

Just added this to the credit guideline Wikipedia page.

Nivekian wrote:

IMDb is good for basic stuff but to think they know how to spell a chinese persons name better than a chinese person is ridiculous!

For the record, all of these sites are user generated content. They all have mistakes.

Agreed, that's why I cross checked over three different sites (IMDb, Wikipedia and HKMDB) to match up as much as possible, but this apparently was not better than "IMDb says this".

This is one of the reasons why Wiki and Wikipedia are not valid. A user says he uses it and you include it in the wiki rules.

Then you also have to write next to it that just as many users have said so far that they do not do this and use IMDB.

Firstly as I said I used Wikipedia ALONG with other sites to cross check information, compare that to you ONLY seeming to use IMDb.

Secondly I added them to Filmogs internal wiki page on community guide for credits as examples of external source locations.

If you bothered to look, it lists IMDb, Wikipedia, all those Asian movie databases and all the Discogs pages as examples of useful sources to cross reference.
https://films.discogs.com/wiki/community-guide-to-credits#external-links

Why are you so close minded to anything other than IMDb being the be all and end all source?

How about we just use the duplicates as alias pages?

Nivekian wrote:

How about we just use the duplicates as alias pages?

I actually think a way of linking credits to a credit as aliases would be a good alternate, that way anything linked to that credit can transfer to the main credit.

marco.leistner1 wrote:

The subgenre is perfectly fine, add something I forgot.

Don't mind if a link to HKMDB is added to the artists I created. But I don't accept it if a complete film set is rewritten. Although I also think that my entries are not so bad that this would be justified.

Yes just had a credit edited to HKMD when it should be left as IMDB i thought when i was supossibly fixing credits i got told by thewho not to correct them, because i was fllowing imdb and not his special sities.

but its fine for him to go and vandalise names to suit another site when IMDB will be the main one used as its more known.

never heard of jfdb, kfdb until right now as they are obsecure websities.

i am also not comming back too this fourm.

UG1002 wrote:

Yes just had a credit edited to HKMD when it should be left as IMDB i thought when i was supossibly fixing credits i got told by thewho not to correct them, because i was fllowing imdb and not his special sities.

but its fine for him to go and vandalise names to suit another site when IMDB will be the main one used as its more known.

never heard of jfdb, kfdb until right now as they are obsecure websities.

i am also not comming back too this fourm.

It's "vandalism" if the same name is still present, all I did was expanded to their full name, that way if you searched the short name AND the full name you'd get both. I thought it would be easier as I was working through updating the Jackie Chan films and cross referencing more than one source for the information.

Also when have I ever said to not correct credits? I've said to include as much sources as possible. Although it may been regarding wrestlers, in which case the direction was to uniform them into current/known ring names, rather than a mix of ring names and real names.

And those Asian movie databases may be obscure, but they're also specialised in, IMDb is a jack of all trades master of none, specialist sites are more likely to have better information on what they specialise in.

I did the work and checked the last 100 film entries.

87 of them indicated IMDB as the only source
6 of them IMDB and Wikipedia
4 of them no source at all
3 of them kinopoisk.ru

Where is the legendary HKMDB site now, and what will happen if you change the names to HKMDB.

At least 93% of the entries will appear again in the IMDB variant within a very short time, and your entries will always remain aliases, which are never filled with life.

So your comeback is the last 100 films added here, out of 41,000, didn't include any of the 200-300 films from China/Hong Kong region listed here that could have a HKMDB page.

Well you showed me, let's not bother with any other sources besides IMDb because clearly they are all useless, let's just copy everything from IMDb over here blindly and without question, or just shut this site down and just move this over to IMDb.

IMDb does tons of mistakes.

I recommend using the AFI site first.

When there is a miss match between them ask IMDb in their help support.

BarryWallace wrote:

I recommend using the AFI site first.

You got a link? Only thing I found through google has no movie data that I could find.

TheWho87 wrote:

UG1002 wrote:

Yes just had a credit edited to HKMD when it should be left as IMDB i thought when i was supossibly fixing credits i got told by thewho not to correct them, because i was fllowing imdb and not his special sities.

but its fine for him to go and vandalise names to suit another site when IMDB will be the main one used as its more known.

never heard of jfdb, kfdb until right now as they are obsecure websities.

i am also not comming back too this fourm.

It's "vandalism" if the same name is still present, all I did was expanded to their full name, that way if you searched the short name AND the full name you'd get both. I thought it would be easier as I was working through updating the Jackie Chan films and cross referencing more than one source for the information.

Also when have I ever said to not correct credits? I've said to include as much sources as possible. Although it may been regarding wrestlers, in which case the direction was to uniform them into current/known ring names, rather than a mix of ring names and real names.

And those Asian movie databases may be obscure, but they're also specialised in, IMDb is a jack of all trades master of none, specialist sites are more likely to have better information on what they specialise in.

Wrestling pages?

i was talking about the Korean ones that were all in Korean and not in English language.

i got slammed hard trying to help, by you thewho asking too stop, so now can you stop editing them tod suit HKMD, as it's going to cause more issues, unless you plan too add every single Chinese, Hong Kong, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Maylaysian, Singapore, Canbodia and all other asian country films.

otherwise i can see new users who will add a Hong Kong film and create the whole cast as "New Credits" due too them not being able to find the correct name on IMDB.

or atlest wait until we get a staff decision on this.

UG1002 wrote:

i was talking about the Korean ones that were all in Korean and not in English language.

i got slammed hard trying to help, by you thewho asking too stop, so now can you stop editing them tod suit HKMD, as it's going to cause more issues, unless you plan too add every single Chinese, Hong Kong, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Maylaysian, Singapore, Canbodia and all other asian country films.

I think I recall, and I actually agreed with you on those and tried to clean a few up and and got into a similar issue as I did here with them being reverted back, but I think it was more regarding the ones in Russian, mostly due to their sheer numbers, it made sence to tackle them then when/if the credit pages are improved.

UG1002 wrote:

otherwise i can see new users who will add a Hong Kong film and create the whole cast as "New Credits" due too them not being able to find the correct name on IMDB.

You mean the issue we have now that we can't do nothing about waiting on the staff to change things.

Hence why there isn't any real point cleaning up duplicates till something changes with credits, that is unless it's something obvious like two pages with the exact same names.

We are stuck in a catch 22, we want to clean credits up but can't do it properly till the system improves.

Nivekian wrote:

BarryWallace wrote:

I recommend using the AFI site first.

You got a link? Only thing I found through google has no movie data that I could find.

Nivekian wrote:

BarryWallace wrote:

I recommend using the AFI site first.

You got a link? Only thing I found through google has no movie data that I could find.

Nivekian wrote:

BarryWallace wrote:

I recommend using the AFI site first.

You got a link? Only thing I found through google has no movie data that I could find.

Nivekian wrote:

BarryWallace wrote:

I recommend using the AFI site first.

You got a link? Only thing I found through google has no movie data that I could find.

Nivekian wrote:

BarryWallace wrote:

I recommend using the AFI site first.

You got a link? Only thing I found through google has no movie data that I could find.

Nivekian wrote:

BarryWallace wrote:

I recommend using the AFI site first.

You got a link? Only thing I found through google has no movie data that I could find.

Nivekian wrote:

BarryWallace wrote:

I recommend using the AFI site first.

You got a link? Only thing I found through google has no movie data that I could find.

Nivekian wrote:

BarryWallace wrote:

I recommend using the AFI site first.

You got a link? Only thing I found through google has no movie data that I could find.

Nivekian wrote:

BarryWallace wrote:

I recommend using the AFI site first.

You got a link? Only thing I found through google has no movie data that I could find.

Hey buds,

AFI is the American Film Institute, which records many theatrically released film to their core detail. They specialise in American films, so before putting any IMDB dates double check with AFI. My bad they don't cover Hong Kong films.
https://www.afi.com/

Regarding IMDb vs. HKMDB is if they have different date. I suggest to put the earliest date of the two and the second to put between brackets one or the other.

This wasnt really something regarding dates, more how credits are named.

For example how IMDb openly acknowledge that they reorder the names of credits while HKMDB uses a direct name translation. Which is why I think HKMDB trumps IMDb.

I don't think there's one correct answer here but I don't see any reason for us to have complete uniformity with one database over another.

In my opinion, unless the name added by the original submitter is wrong (doesn't exist in that form anywhere, including on any of the other databases) the name should not be changed but the name variation added in the Profile section.

I know it's not a perfect solution, but transliteration is a tough one.

omg finally.

does that mean all the ones the who changed has too be changed back?

You mean changed from a correct name to a wrong name?

I crossed referenced where possible from multiple sources to get the correct name from translation, since these mostly matched HKMDB I assumed their names was mostly correct.

Especially when IMDb admits they incorrectly order Asian names
https://help.imdb.com/article/contribution/names-biographical-data/names/GSA3M6SFHRAERXZ3?ref_=helpsrall#asian

Also any plan of some kind of alias system for credits since that would make this issue irrelevant.

TheWho87 wrote:

You mean changed from a correct name to a wrong name?

I crossed referenced where possible from multiple sources to get the correct name from translation, since these mostly matched HKMDB I assumed their names was mostly correct.

Especially when IMDb admits they incorrectly order Asian names
https://help.imdb.com/article/contribution/names-biographical-data/names/GSA3M6SFHRAERXZ3?ref_=helpsrall#asian

So you are saying that everything on hkmd is 100% correct.

then why do most of the hkmd names are Aliases on imdb?

and why did you change gloria yip too Gloria Yip Wan-Yee when its spelt Gloria Yip on both wikipedia and imdb and alias field Gloria Yip Wan-Yee.

1) I'm not, I am saying that in my cross refrencing it tended to match HKMDB 9/10 times, especally when you correct IMDb name order, it's more accurate than IMDb since that intentionally put Asian names in the wrong order (see link in previous post), add to that is also includes their name in their own language, something IMDb does not do.

2) Then why don't they put the name correctly, this would then not be an issue.

3) Because that way it would catch both IMDb AND HKMDB, if you put "Gloria Yip" that credit will pop up, but also if you search "Gloria Yip Wan-Yee" as it is on HKMDB, it will also pop up, don't you think it would avoid confusion and duplicatess if a credit can be found using any site?

On that same note, what about Li Ching and Ching Li, who I came across today, both of these were initally set to their HKMDB names, which connects to the films they were linked to, yet if you use IMDb you'll get the opposite person, which should be the priority?

Another example would be for "Tony Liu", we have two in the database, Tony Liu Tian-Jue was initially credited ONLY as "Tony Liu", then there was a second credit from HKMDB titled Tony Liu Chun-Ku, to avoid confusing the second for the first it makes sence to include a full name to seperate the two fully.

ANOTHER example would be with Frankie Chan Fan-Kei, originally listed only as Frankie Chan, who had film credits linked to it that were of Frankie Chan Chi-Leung.

You starting to see a pattern here?

Using their full name firstly avoids confusion between John Smith and John Smith (2), giving a point of refrence to double check, secondly it allows ease of use of both IMDb AND HKMDB.

And just something of note, since a certain individual wanted to justify the relevance of HKMDB by checking the last 100 film added.

If you go to any film here from China, Hong Kong, Singapore or Taiwan, you will find that they have source links to IMDb, Wikipedia and HKMDB if a page exists, it's usually Wikipedia that doesn't and I can't be bothered going through different languagess of Wikipedia to hunt them down.

if you plan on adding every single asian film then there is no point in adding asian credits.

no one other then you thewho will be able too add asian films as if anyone tried it would be a waste of time and just end up in duplicates.

i'm not even gonna try and argue anymore it's thewho's way or the highway here.

and using BOLD IS LIKE YELLING.

The thing is your just assuming everyone uses IMDb, as I've already mentioned I've found credits under both IMDb and HKMDB names, proving people were using the site in the past, why are you demanding IMDb be the one and only sole source of information, I cross reference between IMDb, Wikipedia and HKMDB for information yet I'm in the wrong because I'm not copying everything IMDb says as gospel, yes more people may know of it and yes more may use it but that does not justify using it when they openly admit they have incorrect information.

As I've mentioned on these forums before, if this is all about stopping duplicates, even if we made it a strict rule to copy IMDb word for word, we'd still get duplicates, it's not like it's gonna stop, the only way to reduce duplicates is if the staff add an alias system, and even then that won't stop duplicates. Why can't you understand I'm looking for the best and most correct information and that doesn't tend to be IMDb.

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